Army Deserter Seeks Asylum in Germany

[sir.real]

A deserter from the US army seeking asylum in Germany pleads his case Wednesday in a hearing that could have major political and legal ramifications.

Citing profound moral opposition to the US-led invasion of Iraq, Andre Shepherd, 31, went AWOL from his base in southern Germany in spring 2007 and spent 19 months on the run before applying for asylum in November last year.

Shepherd, originally from Cleveland, Ohio, completed a five-month stint in Iraq between September 2004 and February 2005 where he serviced Apache helicopters as part of the 412th Aviation Support Battalion.

When ordered to redeploy to Iraq, he felt he could not continue to serve in what he said is a "completely illegal war" and will be the first US soldier to claim asylum in Germany in a landmark case.

"Wednesday is my chance to tell my side of the story," Shepherd told AFP on Monday.

He said his case rests on the illegality of the war and the fact that he would be "unfairly prosecuted if handed over to the US authorities."

Tim Huber from the Military Counseling Network, which has been working with Shepherd, told AFP that the potential legal precedent of a positive ruling would have a "huge impact."

"There would not be a whole lot stopping US soldiers walking off their bases" to claim asylum, he told AFP.

"The gist of this whole thing is that he went AWOL because he didn't believe in the war in Iraq. He agreed with Germany," Huber said, where people were overwhelmingly opposed to the 2003 invasion.

Huber also pointed out that part of Germany's own law -- set up by the US military at the Nuremberg war crimes tribunal after World War II -- says that soldiers must take responsibility for their own actions.

"Just following orders is not an excuse. What we have here is a case of a soldier following his sense of personal responsibility," he said.

However, Shepherd's lawyer, Reinhard Marx, said that although he was confident his legal case was strong, the ruling could put Germany in a tight spot politically, which could affect the outcome of the hearing.

"Legally, it's an open-and-shut case. Politically, we don't know," Marx told AFP. He added: "It's of course a very politicised case. There's a very fine line between politics and the law."

The hearing takes place in the western German city of Karlsruhe at the Federal Immigration Office -- part of Germany's interior ministry.

Marx said: "The government will take the last decision. They won't leave it to the administrative departments."

The hearing is expected to last three or four hours and is closed to the public. A decision on Shepherd's application for asylum could be expected in the next four months, Marx said.

Shepherd himself said the procedure could "potentially last years."

Nevertheless, he vowed to appeal in the courts if his application is rejected.

"I will definitely fight on, as I don't believe I or anyone else should be prosecuted for doing what they think is right," he said.

source: Military.com (http://www.military.com/news/article/February-2009/army-deserter-seeks-asylum-in-germany.html?col=1186032307786)

[timmyruckus]

as much as i disagree with the war this guy doesn't deserve shit and needs to be prosecuted

you enlist in the army on your own free will you better understand you are government property, and just that....property. you enlist, you should know that it's your job to follow command and if you enlist w/o realizing our government's shady ways then that's your own damn fault.

[timmyruckus]

good article jimbo, i wasn't aware of this

[mikemcgrath]

he should have went to ireland. they like giving asylum to us citizens.

[Tonic]

you enlist in the army on your own free will you better understand you are government property, and just that....property. you enlist, you should know that it's your job to follow command and if you enlist w/o realizing our government's shady ways then that's your own damn fault.

Actually you are chattel property of the government as well. Obama could sign a draft order tomorrow and you would have to go to war as you are property of the U.S. Government(corporation)

oh the irony

[timmyruckus]

Actually you are chattel property of the government as well. Obama could sign a draft order tomorrow and you would have to go to war as you are property of the U.S. Government(corporation)

right, good point

but it derails from the main focus that this guy actually signed himself up and then decided to up and bounce on the DOD. had he been a draftee i wouldn't have the same feelings/thoughts towards his actions....

[Tonic]

right, good point

but it derails from the main focus that this guy actually signed himself up and then decided to up and bounce on the DOD. had he been a draftee i wouldn't have the same feelings/thoughts towards his actions....

word... joining the army these days is like some morbid suicidal joke.

Go kill somebody you have no need or desire to kill, then go mental or just be brainwashed into a obedient tool

those are your options

[EDENFLUX]

Since this has reached the news, im sure he will be taken back to the states. just so other soldiers won't get ideas.

[The Spanish Armada]

whao whao whao ya'll./..

"Just following orders is not an excuse. What we have here is a case of a soldier following his sense of personal responsibility

It is an actual law in the military, The UCMJ... Uniform Code of Military Justice... any service member (so which ever branch your in) is responsible for standing against orders that member deems illegal or immoral. Its a catch 22, I mean they pound this into your head at basic training.. to follow orders but to also be mindful of illegal orders or orders that are against human moral...

Military members are not all tools.. if all of them listened to their training we're all tought to follow orders and question orders to ensure orders are not illegal.

I mean give the guy a break, I was over there and it was / is fucked up.

[timmyruckus]

boo all over that

this guy gets no break from me, nor should he from you, especially you travis. you went over there, you didn't back down to what you were supposed to do, you were a man about your job and knew of what 'could' happen in the worst of circumstances yet you did it anyway, b/c you are a man. this guy is not.


were the orders to kill innocent civilians? no. i could see if he had a direct order to do something illegal then yes, he has a foot to stand on. he was to be shipped out to a war which his personal convictions felt was illegal, but he hadn't been asked to DO anything illegal. by his method of reasoning he should've been discharged for being apart of the DOD which was involved in an "illegal" war in the first place....it's too far a stretch imho.

were there ulterior motives in our governments involvement over there? it sure seems that way. i don't think this guy has a valid excuse to bounce out on his job. hang him in the gallows and throw rocks at his balls before he dies i say!

[Bucho]

boo all over that

this guy gets no break from me, nor should he from you, especially you travis. you went over there, you didn't back down to what you were supposed to do, you were a man about your job and knew of what 'could' happen in the worst of circumstances yet you did it anyway, b/c you are a man. this guy is not.





My Lai.

period, end of story.

[sir.real]

ah, but ....

no, they were not told to kill innocent civilians, however they were told to be wary of all civilians since any of them could be wired.

so, i'm sure there's alot more innocents being taken out than needs to be.

i'd probably have some serious problems dealing with that too.

almost like they primed them to shoot first and ask questions later if any situation is even remotely questionable.

[traci_dub]

I was in the military as well and you know good and fucking well what you're getting in to from the get go.

If the FTX training didn't let you know.......

If the weapons training didn't let you know.....

If the MOP Gear training didn't let you know....

If learning how to survive chemical weapons attacks didn't let you know.....

If your first aid training didn't let you know.....

If being 18 and having to do a living will didn't let you know.....

If being forced to wear body armor stateside fairly often didn't let you know.....

Then odds are you're a fucking moron and putting your dumb ass in Ft. Lev is doing society a fucking favor.

Anyone past, present, or future, knows what they're getting in to when they sign up for the military. No fucking sympathy.

[traci_dub]

on a side comment if this jackass could come up with the money to pay back our government for the training, clothing, food, housing, and wasted time on him he should be allowed to return free of prosecution. But by the time you've been in the military for a year or two the military has invested tens of thousands of dollars in you and yeah breaking your lawfully binding contract does deserve a consequence.

[Tonic]

[QUOTE]boo all over that

this guy gets no break from me, nor should he from you, especially you travis. you went over there, you didn't back down to what you were supposed to do, you were a man about your job and knew of what 'could' happen in the worst of circumstances yet you did it anyway, b/c you are a man. this guy is not.



thats strong talk behind the comfort of a pc in your Joco whitedbread fantasy home there tim...


were the orders to kill innocent civilians? no. i could see if he had a direct order to do something illegal then yes, he has a foot to stand on. he was to be shipped out to a war which his personal convictions felt was illegal, but he hadn't been asked to DO anything illegal. by his method of reasoning he should've been discharged for being apart of the DOD which was involved in an "illegal" war in the first place....it's too far a stretch imho.



How do you know he wasnt ordered to kill innocents? You are just guessing here. Being in america and guessing about it and bieng in fucking iraqi hell is like comparing matchsticks to napalm


were there ulterior motives in our governments involvement over there? it sure seems that way. i don't think this guy has a valid excuse to bounce out on his job. hang him in the gallows and throw rocks at his balls before he dies i say!


He who is free of sin cast the first stone

[Tonic]

on a side comment if this jackass could come up with the money to pay back our government for the training, clothing, food, housing, and wasted time on him he should be allowed to return free of prosecution.

Maybe he should ask for a bailout?

[djephex]

maybe the guy believed in his gov't, till he saw with his own eyes the anguish and brutality of the reality of the situation. he should not be prosecuted in the slightest. he followed his beliefs and made an even more ballsy decision to leave than to simply just follow orders. following orders you dont believe in for any reason renders you pathetic and weak in your mind and heart. but i doubt he will get to follow his heart. he will prolly be locked up, threatened, raped in the booty and all that shit just because he realized the people he once thought were good really were exploiting the citizens army for personal gain or motives. another sad story and ridiculous outcome for one person following his heart.

[timmyruckus]

[QUOTE=timmyruckus;442865]


thats strong talk behind the comfort of a pc in your Joco whitedbread fantasy home there tim...





How do you know he wasnt ordered to kill innocents? You are just guessing here. Being in america and guessing about it and bieng in fucking iraqi hell is like comparing matchsticks to napalm




He who is free of sin cast the first stone


you haven't read a word i've said, and i love how you catergorize who i am b/c i live in Johnson County....I didn't sign myself up for any of the armed forces b/c i have a different path in life i wish to take. if there was a draft, i would go, end of story. I stay in the USA b/c i love this country and i know what comes with the price of freedom, even if that means going to fight so that i can keep my freedom. would i be scared of dying? you bet your ass i would! i never said differently. would i have a problem killing anyone? fuck, not if they are shooting bullets at me i would gladly end the life of another man and not think twice about it. if a kid with a bomb strapped to his chest started walking towards me a bullet from my rifle would dead him or her right in his tracks. this is the mentality you have to have before going to war or you die much quicker than your comrades. sorry it's so harsh, but that is nothing but 100% truth and how i believe.

how are you going to catergorize me as another whitebread johnson county pussy kid? you know nothing about me other than where i live. you assume who i am b/c of what? how i dress? how i act? that, my friend, is rediculous.

what does being from Johnson County have to do with anything at all? answer that AJ. please i would LOVE to hear what you know about me b/c of where i grew up. i'm not a punk bitch nor would i back out of duty if it called. period. i'll await your response to my question b/c nothing intelligent will come of it and you know it.

[timmyruckus]

I was in the military as well and you know good and fucking well what you're getting in to from the get go.

If the FTX training didn't let you know.......

If the weapons training didn't let you know.....

If the MOP Gear training didn't let you know....

If learning how to survive chemical weapons attacks didn't let you know.....

If your first aid training didn't let you know.....

If being 18 and having to do a living will didn't let you know.....

If being forced to wear body armor stateside fairly often didn't let you know.....

Then odds are you're a fucking moron and putting your dumb ass in Ft. Lev is doing society a fucking favor.

Anyone past, present, or future, knows what they're getting in to when they sign up for the military. No fucking sympathy.


well put sir

[sir.real]

ah, but armed forces is national defense. the only thing we were initially defending by going in headstrong without the UN and without other major supporters were agendas outside the greater good.

a war, in the right sense, is a completely different monster than this 'war on terror' premise we were using. just like the 'war on drugs', how do you honestly conquer something like that?

that's not war, but rather fear mongering and, in this case, a 'gateway' to further racial profiling and political & financial interests. if you read from less biased sources, you also see that there are many cases where the US is also seen as terrorists with 'newer', 'shinier' weapons. this is a topic that could go on forever because all of us are drawing from a select subset of information, our own morals and experiences.

honestly, there are many things that went wrong before and during both Iraq and Afghanistan. i seem to remember them not wanting another vietnam on their hands, but it looks like it's already another similar scenario. not to mention, how many years have we been there now? how many years after initially invading did this particular soldier serve over there? he obviously did his 'ordered' stint in Iraq, but apparently witnessed things that went against what he believes to be right.

bottom line is, we all have our choices. even the choice for asylum, whether approved or not, will come with a heavy price...

he served. maybe he didn't fulfill his contract and, depending on the circumstances, will have to pay the price.... but, geez, a couple of you are indicating that you would treat him no better than waste on the bottom of your shoe.

[traci_dub]

ah, but armed forces is national defense. the only thing we were initially defending by going in headstrong without the UN and without other major supporters were agendas outside the greater good.

a war, in the right sense, is a completely different monster than this 'war on terror' premise we were using. just like the 'war on drugs', how do you honestly conquer something like that?

that's not war, but rather fear mongering and, in this case, a 'gateway' to further racial profiling and political & financial interests. if you read from less biased sources, you also see that there are many cases where the US is also seen as terrorists with 'newer', 'shinier' weapons. this is a topic that could go on forever because all of us are drawing from a select subset of information, our own morals and experiences.

honestly, there are many things that went wrong before and during both Iraq and Afghanistan. i seem to remember them not wanting another vietnam on their hands, but it looks like it's already another similar scenario. not to mention, how many years have we been there now? how many years after initially invading did this particular soldier serve over there? he obviously did his 'ordered' stint in Iraq, but apparently witnessed things that went against what he believes to be right.

bottom line is, we all have our choices. even the choice for asylum, whether approved or not, will come with a heavy price...

he served. maybe he didn't fulfill his contract and, depending on the circumstances, will have to pay the price.... but, geez, a couple of you are indicating that you would treat him no better than waste on the bottom of your shoe.

Yeah but when you sign the dotted line and raise your right hand and enlist/take your commission your job is to take orders (inbeforelawfullordersargument) not to argue semantics outside your pay grade.

You are made well aware of this at many points. Infact anyone who doesnt realize this early on or fails to comply is usually generally discharged under the heading "failure to adjust to military standards" and its a wash on both sides.

However, once you get up in the E-3 + range you're made well aware of your what you're doing, what the UCMJ is, and the legal ramifications.

Theres something rotten in denmark with this guy. If he saw things or did things that fucked him up there is a process for that. It's overly fucking common at the moment to be discharged for PTSD, general instability, etc etc if you talk to your unit. That would have him shipped stateside and likely on medical detail for a while why they sort this out.

Simply not agreeing is not an option. the military doesnt care what your opinion is, and he knew it. He knew what he was getting into when he chose to seek asylum.

I, luckly, was involved with the B-2's and stayed stateside outside short stints in guam and diego garcia and afghanistan for a hot minute and was out of the military early on in the Iraq war. However, I have plenty of friends in all branches that served a long time in Iraq and Afghanistan and quite a few have been discharged because they couldn't repeat what they've done already or had longterm issues from the time they spent in Iraq.

[timmyruckus]

i'm waiting AJ....let's hear it

[Tonic]

[QUOTE=Tonic;442904]


you haven't read a word i've said, and i love how you catergorize who i am b/c i live in Johnson County....I didn't sign myself up for any of the armed forces b/c i have a different path in life i wish to take. if there was a draft, i would go, end of story. I stay in the USA b/c i love this country and i know what comes with the price of freedom, even if that means going to fight so that i can keep my freedom. would i be scared of dying? you bet your ass i would! i never said differently. would i have a problem killing anyone? fuck, not if they are shooting bullets at me i would gladly end the life of another man and not think twice about it. if a kid with a bomb strapped to his chest started walking towards me a bullet from my rifle would dead him or her right in his tracks. this is the mentality you have to have before going to war or you die much quicker than your comrades. sorry it's so harsh, but that is nothing but 100% truth and how i believe.

how are you going to catergorize me as another whitebread johnson county pussy kid? you know nothing about me other than where i live. you assume who i am b/c of what? how i dress? how i act? that, my friend, is rediculous.

what does being from Johnson County have to do with anything at all? answer that AJ. please i would LOVE to hear what you know about me b/c of where i grew up. i'm not a punk bitch nor would i back out of duty if it called. period. i'll await your response to my question b/c nothing intelligent will come of it and you know it.

Dude , youre taking this way to personally ... Guess what... I LIVE IN JOHNSON COUNTY TOO!!! Woo hooooooo!

My response was in no way an attack on you as a person or your character Tim. Joco whitebread fantasy land is where we are dude. There is no denying that.

Its simply too complex an issue to sit on-line and guess about. We dont know what really happened, nor the reality of the 'war' going on over there because neither of us has been. Thats the only point I really had. Its really not worth speculating about behind the safety of four walls. Yours or my own conscious could change in a second when youre put into a tough situation. You just never know until you do it.

[Tonic]

..

he served. maybe he didn't fulfill his contract and, depending on the circumstances, will have to pay the price.... but, geez, a couple of you are indicating that you would treat him no better than waste on the bottom of your shoe.

preach on brotha!!!

[timmyruckus]

[QUOTE=timmyruckus;443770]

Dude , youre taking this way to personally ... Guess what... I LIVE IN JOHNSON COUNTY TOO!!! Woo hooooooo!

My response was in no way an attack on you as a person or your character Tim. Joco whitebread fantasy land is where we are dude. There is no denying that.

Its simply too complex an issue to sit on-line and guess about. We dont know what really happened, nor the reality of the 'war' going on over there because neither of us has been. Thats the only point I really had. Its really not worth speculating about behind the safety of four walls. Yours or my own conscious could change in a second when youre put into a tough situation. You just never know until you do it.


fair enough, but the fact that where i (or you for that matter) live has nothing to do with what one person has been through or what the beliefs are of the individual. a blanket statement like that just comes off completely ignorant. probably as ignorant as i may have come off to you with my statements about this particular individual b/c i have no 1st hand experience over there. i've got buddies out there right now, the ones that have come back have painted a real vivid picture of how things are. my buddy was a gunner on a humvee (can you say operation moving target?...he coined that term and i thought it was genius). perhaps it's my friends talking about guys like this deserter and the mentality of other enlistees like this guy who they had to fight next to that turns me so sour. my friends who are over there i love to death, but some of them are straight up nuts. but they are out there doing a job i would never volunteer to do alongside little boys who enlist for a college tuition hoping they don't get shipped out. then when it comes time to get shipped off they bitch out? what the fuck is that? how can anyone defend the actions of an individual like this?

from what i gather it's ok for me to enlist in a branch of the military, take them for all the training and education (even the college tuition and signing bonus) and then when they do something that i don't agree with i can just back out and say, oh hey, sorry guys, just kidding, i don't think this is cool so i'm out. and seek asylum in another country. it's not right, this guy is no less corrupt than 99% of the politicians on capital hill.

this guy is either the biggest pussy in the world or completely ignorant to world affairs, starting within our own governments involvement in the middle east. i just fail to see how any of you can genuinely defend this guys actions. yeah, i COMPLETELY agree our involvement over there is fucked beyond all comprehension and belief. i COMPLETELY agree our government has it's entities that are/reflect pure evil. i COMPLETELY agree we are stupid for being out there. but this guy is robbing me, robbing you, robbing your grandmother for that matter.....

[timmyruckus]

he's the second coming of benedict arnold, maybe not case by case, but same thing in mine eyes


lol, i love how this thread got real heavy too

[The Spanish Armada]

ok ok...

I can respect freedom of speech and all, and I get all the different opinions... but I think Jim does the best in empathizing...

Unless your ass was over there, I don't feel you have the substantial right to bash the guys choice...

I was scared as fuck, saw a lot of shit that just wasn't right... out of the 9.5 months I was over there I only actually saw about a days worth of FRONT LINES time and that was enough to make me re-think a lot of things... Let alone the soldiers and marine that had to do that every day for a year or more...

now this guy was in Iraq already.. he had seen shit, prolly some more fucked up shit than I ever got to see and he was there about a year after I did my time over there. so it was still really fucked up.

Theres tons of shit, that unless you were there, you have no idea about. Shit that hard to even explain let alone talk about to civilians.

there are just some things civilians just won't understand...

and to take it a step further... with prior military service members... unless you were apart of OEF/OIF some thing you just wont understand...


SIMPLE FACT... Traci Dub, Tonic, Timmeh... all the actual contributors to this thread...


no amount of training prepares you for this shit... nothing about military training tells you how to handle a suicide bomber child, where everything that moves is a possible threat...

and to Traci Dub... I am really disheartened by your narrow narrow view... even tho we are all trained to be as machine like as possible every single person in the military is a person a human being... and the USA really does have it is in the regards that in parts of the world, no American person has any way to be prepared for some of the fuckedness that other human beings are prepared to do...

If you are any kind of decent human being, you would have no idea how to deal with the fact that you must kill civilians, CHILDREN because they see you as a target and very well might run towards you with a bomb strapped to their chest... and mind you shit like this happened every day until about two years into the war...


I play devils advocate and pose this to you all...

How dare you assume that any human being should be prepared to do what had to be done in order to stay alive over there let alone complete what ever task or mission you had been given..

Training does not prepare you for war... War prepares you for war... either you can handle it or you can't and you'll never no until your there.

[timmyruckus]

[COLOR=#496292]Unless your ass was over there, I don't feel you have the substantial right to bash the guys choice




look, i have EVERY right to bash this guys choice b/c i would go to war if i was drafted. period, END OF STORY. i would do EXACTLY as my grandfathers did in WWII....i would fight for my freedom and my family's freedom. i WOULD DIE for them if it came down to it. this is a completely different scenario.... he signed himself up for something then bitched out on his duties. I didn't sign up for the military b/c i KNOW it's fucked up over there. how can you say that i don't think it's fucked up over there. i know it's fucked up beyond more comprehension than i know b/c i don't konw first hand.

i will tell you right here and now i would NOT, UNDER ANY circumstance, dodge a draft. tell me how i cannot judge this man. i would not do it, period point blank.

i feel like you guys defending him are implying that b/c i "haven't been there" that i would bitch out like this guy and that is just wrong wrong wrong. if you aren't implying it, it's certainly being read that way.



i can't believe any of you can tell me i'm wrong in my line of thinking just b/c i haven't 'been over there'......you guys are so off base and your platform is wobbly at best with that stance.

[Bucho]

due respect timmy, if you were drafted, you wouldn't have a choice anyway.

honestly, there are people who sign up for the military because they think it's their only economic salvation. in some cases, should they live, this is true. they'll get an education, they get paid for their time, so on and so forth.

however, there are others who do it because it's what they always wanted to do. thinking about killing an enemy combatant from your recliner is vastly different than confronting that enemy face to face (or burka to burka, whatever). either way, maybe this was his path.

other people, like negator, get off on cracking skulls and shitting down windpipes while sampling the geographical hallucinogens. that's aok with me, just not my thing.

i certainly don't pretend to know this guy's mentality before he went in, but none of us do and the very select few that have served really should be the only people discussing this as it's easy for us to arm-chair quarterback any situation without having been put through that situation anyway. it's not a wobbly platfrom of discussion at all.

[timmyruckus]

i would have a choice. either dodge and suffer consequences or answer the call of duty. i wouldn't want to go to war, but i would.

i'm done with this thread. i'll leave it with the fact that if i did end up on the front line i'd rather be with the 'negator's' of the military than guys like this.

[Bucho]

yeah, but that's not the original point. until you're at the front line, you don't know what you're going to do. you might have some preconceived notion of what you might do, but until you're actually there, you wouldn't know.

[djephex]

i would have a choice. either dodge and suffer consequences or answer the call of duty. i wouldn't want to go to war, but i would.

i'm done with this thread. i'll leave it with the fact that if i did end up on the front line i'd rather be with the 'negator's' of the military than guys like this.

so what happens if your country is conducting a corrupt and criminal war, and your are drafted? your telling us that you would just go and murder kids if your gov't told you they were the enemy? and then theres your beliefs in the battle. would you go if you, in your heart, knew this was a corrupt war, and that your country was in the wrong? WW2 and Iraq dont even compare. Millions had to die in WW2 to prevent world domination by an evil fascist regime. iraq, so far as i can tell, was waged on reasons that were at least only half true, possibly complete lies.

[The Spanish Armada]

Courage is something you know you have after the fact, or after the act, or the proceeding 2 minutes before you do something you never ever thought you would be faced with...


I joined the guard.. Weekend fucking warrior.. I didn't sign up to be over there... I signed up 6 months before 9/11... I shit my pants on 9/11 cause I knew I was fucked for the next 6 years (turned out I was only fucked for 4 years... but I was actively deployed for 2/3rds of my 6 year enlistment... no body saw this shit coming... after the 1st two years after 9/11 the active duty units were tapped out due to heavy deployment schedules, enter in national and air national guard), and no where in my discussions with recruiters was I told I would have to go....to say that he knew what he signed up for is also to say that those who took out fucked up sub prime loan should've know they would have to pay triple their pymt... all that shit... is in the FINE PRINT... and the fine print is there for worst case circumstances no shit anyone would've expected...


Everyone please listen… I am not offended at all by your respective opinions, Timmy- I know you feel deeply in what you would do and I have no doubt you would make your country proud… But the simple fact I am trying to point out is war today is nothing like war before, tactics and weapons unseen in previous battles… the U.S Military is only beginning to understand what Palestinians and Israeli’s have been dealing with for decades.

I will play devils advocate on this topic because I was there, and I would wish I could make everyone who wasn’t understand what it was like over there… but this thread is one main reason I keep my experiences and opinions to myself because it is much much much more complicated that you can imagine and the decision to be courageous in war is much more complex than it ever used to be.

I was an aircraft mechanic.. Mechanic… (Just so that we have a clear understanding of what I was doing… Crew Chief- goes where the plane goes, something breaks we fix it, two crew chiefs to a plane at the time we were considered Air Crew, we also do security where ever the plane goes the crew chiefs are in charge of the planes saftey) ok.

Detached to the 752nd Air Expeditionary Squadron CENTCOM, we had the largest base of C-130 transport aircraft in the AOR (Area of Responsibility), with the 752nd I was assigned to SPEC OPS Support, I was over there before the war during OEF picking up and dropping off Spec Ops soldiers and marine till about a month after the war started after that… I was assigned to the MEDEVAC Unit…

Let me repeat so true understanding happens… MEDEVAC Unit…

Once a day for about two months I had to get a power washer with a portable water tank and spray the cargo hold clean after a long days work and flying to unsafe areas to pick up the wounded or dying or dead… Nothing like landing on a stip of dirty in BFE to meet a Battalion or Squad with injured personnel, taking my M-16 or M-9 (which ever I felt safer with at the time) me and the other crew chief providing cover for each side of the aircraft while loading…Not to mention the shit I saw flying back to base with a full load of cargo.. at the time we refered to the people we were bring back as cargo.. at the time it was really the only way I could deal with it, the only way I could detach myself from what I saw every day so I could focus on my job.

Personally, I’ll stop there, I’m ranting now… I would love the opportunity to actually discuss some of this with you timmy… you’re the only person on here I think I know well enough to have a drink and tell war time stories… I mean besides Toni I haven’t really talked about the real shit to anyone outside my unit. I am finding that talking about it might seem to help you understand where I’m coming from… and for some reason seems to make me feel better about my time over there, not to mention when was the last time we just chilled and drank and swapped stories…

Ok, I’m done ranting and raving… just saying…

You never know what your going to do till your faced with it, on any given day anyone could be courageous or cowardice depending on what their faced with… that is what War has taught me.

[sir.real]

Everyone please listen… I am not offended at all by your respective opinions, Timmy- I know you feel deeply in what you would do and I have no doubt you would make your country proud… But the simple fact I am trying to point out is war today is nothing like war before, tactics and weapons unseen in previous battles… the U.S Military is only beginning to understand what Palestinians and Israeli’s have been dealing with for decades.


agreed. we're not saying you are wrong for thinking that way tim.

so what happens if your country is conducting a corrupt and criminal war, and your are drafted? your telling us that you would just go and murder kids if your gov't told you they were the enemy? and then theres your beliefs in the battle. would you go if you, in your heart, knew this was a corrupt war, and that your country was in the wrong? WW2 and Iraq dont even compare. Millions had to die in WW2 to prevent world domination by an evil fascist regime. iraq, so far as i can tell, was waged on reasons that were at least only half true, possibly complete lies.

let us not forget that this is the 'war' that we deployed for so quickly that we threw people at it with faulty, or in some cases improper, equipment. anyone remember the whole armor or vest issues?

[traci_dub]

edit for below message

[traci_dub]

ok ok...

I can respect freedom of speech and all, and I get all the different opinions... but I think Jim does the best in empathizing...

Unless your ass was over there, I don't feel you have the substantial right to bash the guys choice...

I was scared as fuck, saw a lot of shit that just wasn't right... out of the 9.5 months I was over there I only actually saw about a days worth of FRONT LINES time and that was enough to make me re-think a lot of things... Let alone the soldiers and marine that had to do that every day for a year or more...

now this guy was in Iraq already.. he had seen shit, prolly some more fucked up shit than I ever got to see and he was there about a year after I did my time over there. so it was still really fucked up.

Theres tons of shit, that unless you were there, you have no idea about. Shit that hard to even explain let alone talk about to civilians.

there are just some things civilians just won't understand...

and to take it a step further... with prior military service members... unless you were apart of OEF/OIF some thing you just wont understand...


SIMPLE FACT... Traci Dub, Tonic, Timmeh... all the actual contributors to this thread...


no amount of training prepares you for this shit... nothing about military training tells you how to handle a suicide bomber child, where everything that moves is a possible threat...

and to Traci Dub... I am really disheartened by your narrow narrow view... even tho we are all trained to be as machine like as possible every single person in the military is a person a human being... and the USA really does have it is in the regards that in parts of the world, no American person has any way to be prepared for some of the fuckedness that other human beings are prepared to do...

If you are any kind of decent human being, you would have no idea how to deal with the fact that you must kill civilians, CHILDREN because they see you as a target and very well might run towards you with a bomb strapped to their chest... and mind you shit like this happened every day until about two years into the war...


I play devils advocate and pose this to you all...

How dare you assume that any human being should be prepared to do what had to be done in order to stay alive over there let alone complete what ever task or mission you had been given..

Training does not prepare you for war... War prepares you for war... either you can handle it or you can't and you'll never no until your there.


When 9/11 hit I was at Whiteman AFB. Home of the B-2's. Usually in military operations we'd dispatch out B-2s from Diego Garcia however, we wanted to take an element of surprise thus the B-2s flew directly from Whiteman, all the way over and dropped bombs and returned.

One of the main problems was at the time the JDAMs on the B-2 could only have their targets changed as they were spooled to be dropped. My commanders had us develop a system where those targets could be changed from Whiteman AFB, MO at any moments notice relative to current intel.

Literally the day that this was finalized the heaviest bombing in Afghanistan began. Actually within hours. I was sitting in our command post getting brownie points from our colonel for literally enabling the US military to more accurately (or in some cases inaccurately) kill thousands upon thousands of lives. I heard the target confirmations and listened to the brass above me talk about what was going on like it was nothing.

For a while I had to battle with the knowledge that I was involved in something that indirectly (or i felt directly) killed thousands upon tens of thousands of people and may still be being used today. I may not have been mopping up blood or treating the wounded but I shared my fair share of guilt and mental anguish. When I went overseas it fucked me up for a good while seeing the end result.

You shouldn't have to have seen what you saw, don't patronize me with "you wouldn't understand" because odds are you wouldn't understand what I went through as well. You're not aware what it's like to watch CNN and see something being bombed and say to yourself "hey I was in the room where that order and those coordinates were given, and I'm the one who helped to develop the system to make this happen" it's a really fucked weird scenario.

Knowing the B-2 kill count and all that yeah I'm aware war is fucked. I know I wasn't aware when I signed up of this exact scenario, I was aware that I may be asked to do the unimaginable and shoulder some of this burden.

I respect your service and am sorry for the shit you had to do or see.

[traci_dub]

It is an actual law in the military, The UCMJ... Uniform Code of Military Justice... any service member (so which ever branch your in) is responsible for standing against orders that member deems illegal or immoral.

The UCMJ says that it's the responsibility of the member to stand against unlawful or immoral in respect to the UCMJ and the constitution of the united states. The line is often misinterpreted as wiggle room for people to debate and contest orders.

Unlawful and blatantly unlawful orders would be attacking medical personnel, using chemical, biological, or other banned weapons, etc etc. Those are obviously illegal acts.

An order to kill civilians who have not violated rules of engagement would be a violation.

An order to kill civilians who have violated rules of engagement and are posing an immediate threat to said persons would not be a violation.

Deploying to Iraq not a violation.

Invading Iraq, not a violation.

Conducting patrols in Iraq not a violation.

Engaging hostile combatants in Iraq, not a violation.

A military member being deployed to Iraq to conduct military operations does not fall under this commonly quoted line in the UCMJ. "unlawfull war" is hilarious. The president is the commander and chief of the armed forces. He could have us invade the north pole and butt fuck penquins and its within his rights and needs no approval from anyone period.

He needs congressional approval to declare war but needs no approval to conduct military operations equivelant to a war

The funny thing is we haven't had a declaration of war since WWII so korea, vietnam, and the first gulf war fall under the "unlawful war" blanket.